More Catholic Than the Pope: An Inside Look at Extreme Traditionalism

by Pete Vere and Patrick Madrid

It can be difficult to distinguish defenders from defectors. Many traditionalist schisms that have sprung up since the Second Vatican Council are filled with devotion to the Blessed Mother; they... This description may be from another edition of this product.

• Format: Paperback
• Language: English
• ISBN: 1931709262
• ISBN13: 9781931709262
• Release Date: January 2004
• Publisher: Our Sunday Visitor
• Length: 186 Pages
• Weight: 0.49 lbs.
• Dimensions: 0.4" x 5.3" x 8.1"

Customer Reviews

Great resource for today

I've had this book sitting on my shelf for a while, but with the excommunication recently being lifted on the four SSPX bishops, I thought now would be a good time to get caught up the controversy. Although not written solely about the SSPX, the majority of this short book focuses on the history of the SSPX controversy and some of the major arguments they put forward. After giving the history of the SSPX and the excommunications, the authors take a careful look at some of the major problem points of Vatican II documents. For example, it is often claimed that Vatican II, being only a pastoral council, is not binding. It is true that Vatican II did not contain any anathemas. However, the authors are careful to note what the council itself meant when it referred to itself as a pastoral council and what level of authority they expected the council to have. Among other things, they quote part of Pope John XXIII's opening speech at Vatican II to prove their point. It is true that the "spirit" of Vatican II created horrible abuses in the Church and that we are very far from recovering from all the evils that have been brought into the Church because of "progressiveness" taking things out of context as well as flat out making stuff up. It is also true (in my opinion) that the Novus Ordo is flat out UGLY compared to a TLM. But this book reminds us how important it is to stay humble and obedient to the Church. Part of that means suffering through an ugly mass and abuses within the Church while attempting to counter-reform the "spirit" of Vatican II which has been so grossly warped.

a good balance

I think this book gives a good balanced and simple explanation of the subject. I grew up in traditional movement going to sspx churches most of my life, so for most of my life I only had half the story. I feel like the sspx lied to me trying always to present the church in a extremely negative and corrupt way to justify their going around authority. The sspx seems to think that since there is coruption in the church that they can do anything they want without authority. Only until I started to see problems in it and seeing the good that EWTN is doing did I see a need to find the whole story. This book does a good job.

Well-Written and Timely For Catholics

First of all, if you're of a traditionalist/integrist mindset, stay away from this book. You won't like it. More Catholic Than The Pope lays bare the trouble with traditionalism and the Lefebvre mess(Hint: Like it or not, he excommunicated himself when he defied papal authority and proceeded with ordinations and consecrations without permission.). Though perhaps a bit wordy and technical in some areas, this isn't a difficult book to read, even for a lowly housewife like me. What this book boils down to is this: devout Catholics who fall prey to the powerful attraction of groups like the Society of St. Pius X(SSPX) are in danger of being drawn into defiance of the Magisterium of the Church. To be Catholic is to embrace three crucial concepts, poverty, chastity and obedience. Two out of three are not enough. Unfortunately, devout Catholics who become drawn into the integrist mindset expose themselves to a schismatic and disobedient spirit that also may lead them to follow Lefebvre out of the Church. This book clearly lays out the history and result of the Lefebvrite schism, and is an invaluable glimpse into the minds of those who, through pride in their Catholicism, grow increasingly scornful and disobedient of lawful Church authority. Many kudos to the authors, especially canon lawyer Pete Vere, who was once in the SSPX until his eyes were opened and he returned to full communion with the Magisterium. Fellow writer Patrick Madrid is an expert in Catholic apologetics; both write with clarity and charity. Highly recommended to help understand the inner workings of Catholics who have wandered into a jaundiced mindset of those who believe that they are true Catholics because they prefer the Tridentine liturgy to the Pauline one. This book is well worth the time and money invested. Truly, the most unsettling "novelty" to follow Vatican II is how even apparently devout Catholics have become disobedient to the lawful authority of the pope and the Magsterium in the name of "truth". We've wearily watched liberal abuses in our Church, especially in the highjacking of the council and the newer liturgy. It's sad to see those who know their faith so well fall into errors on the other side of the spectrum. Reading this book can help understand the roots of the integrist position, a position which, when followed to its logical conclusion, leads to the more grievous error of sedevacantism. Much gratitude to the authors for their work. PS: The pope can err, unless he's teaching ex cathedra("from the chair"[of Peter]) on matters of faith and morals binding on all Christians, in which limited cases he's under the protection of the Holy Spirit. PPS: It's the Paul VI liturgy; there hasn't yet been a Paul VII. As for Pope St. Pius X, I also recommend his Allocution of May 10, 1909---it's very enlightening.

Great start for the study of SSPX and other Traditionalist Sects

The book is by and for Roman Catholics, and for what it is it is excellent. My only complaint/suggestion is that the arguments that the SSPX uses, this section is very poor considering one of the authors is an x-SSPXer. The only part of the book missing, that would be great in the future is cultural context. The SSPXers are not happy for more reasons than this book would suggest. For example, traditional and faithful Roman Catholics don't like the design of "modern" post Vatican II churches, they don't like the modern music, they don't care for the talking in the chappel. The design of the "church in the round" is horrible. Some of the wall hangings look un religious even. So there is more that the book ignores regarding the causes of SSPX disaffection with the Romans. This would be a good subject to be picked up by another author.

Read this book if you are drawn in to extreme traditionalism...

During the course of my last 2 years, I suppose you can say that my views or perception of what it is to be a "Catholic" has run the entire span from traditionalism to liberalism. I was raised quite traditional and I must say it has had its long term benefits considering the implied lessons of "unwavering moral principles." I found it very difficult to reconcile the state of the Church today and its practices with that of what I did indeed read from sources prior to Vatican II. There is always a certain degree of allure with the possibility of "mystery" and "secrecy." I myself almost bought it, hook, line, and sinker. In a seemingly innocent act, I visited a "Catholic" Church in Colton, CA which went by the name of St. Joseph and the Immaculate Heart of Mary Roman Catholic Church. It seemed harmless enough. I had previously heard so much about the "beautiful Latin Tridentine Mass." The closest [official] one I found was 20 miles away in Rancho Cucamonga. But wait, I live in Colton and this "Catholic Church" which I found is literally miles away. I visited. Boy did it live up to what I have been told. It was mysterious. It was beautiful; the latin, the vestments, the incense, the candles, the reverence, the music. However, an awkward feeling was with me the whole time, like I shouldn't have been there. This "Catholic" Church was in actuality a community under the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX). Their founder, the late Arch. Marcel Lefebvre was excommunicated for consecrating four bishops without proper dispensation from the Holy See. They have a highly suspicious view of the Vernacular Novus Ordo Missae, indeed they reject much of the reforms of the Second Vatican Council. This is where I said, hold on a second. The problems that arose after the Council was not the product of the Council itself, properly understood. But it was the problem of the Council being misrepresented and misused to justify aberrations to the Catholic faith, i.e. liturgical experimentation, theological experimentation, etc. I finished the above book a few months ago. It settled much of my fears that I was in the wrong group of Catholics. This book systematically refutes the arguments of the SSPX. It discusses the history of its founder, the evolution of the anti-Vatican II mindset, and the genesis of its counter-attack, in the form of rejection of the Council itself, denying its infallibility and authority. Since reading this book, I have debated for about 2 months with members of this schismatic group, as well as a few sedavacantist which is a different group which actually believes that the Pope is not a valid Pope and the Chair of Peter is empty. Hence seda-vacant-ist. One need only reference the teachings of Vatican I, in a document called "Pastor Aeternus: Dogmatic Constitution of the Church" from a Council which they do in fact accept, to see that all Catholics are subject to the teachings of the Pope when he speaks as the universal Pastor of the Church in matters regar